Recent Changes for "Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk" - Rochester Wiki

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

ScooterPickle — 2022-10-17T17:34:25Z

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	+ ------ + ''2022-10-17 13:34:25'' [[nbsp]] I can't believe there are so many missing, "Gone, but not forgotten" restaurants! For example, Costello's in Fairport (Corner of Fairport and Baird Rd.'s) that had HUMONGOUS calzones and all-you-can-eat pizza on Sunday nights. How about, The Imperial Chinese Restaurant on Clinton? We used to do karaoke there, every week! Another one, many might not remember, was Grisanti's. The Italian place on the corner of E. Henrietta and Crittendon, right near 390. Unfortunately, I don't have the dates that these locations closed, but maybe someone does and can add entries for them. --["Users/ScooterPickle"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

TheLittleTrollsthenTheTrolls — 2020-03-31T01:33:33Z

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	+ ------ + ''2020-03-30 21:33:33'' [[nbsp]] What about the clubs The Orange Monkey, The Mason Jar, E.R. Junction and T.C. Rockers --["Users/TheLittleTrollsthenTheTrolls"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

RonFazar — 2017-05-05T00:31:34Z

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	+ ------ + ''2017-05-04 20:31:34'' [[nbsp]] Before it was Hungry's, before it was a Pontillo's - was 10 State Street; Pittsford, NY 14534 - next to Thirsty's, called: Noah's Ark pizza? Or something similar? --["Users/RonFazar"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

JackBrown — 2017-02-12T00:12:11Z

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	+ ------ + ''2017-02-11 19:12:11'' [[nbsp]] I am researching a club called Mr. Wonderful. Black club.Blues musicians. There in 1969. Albert King played. Anyone have info-photos etc. Seems to have vanished from this world. It was out of this world then. "Mr. Wonderful" Thanks JackBrown --["Users/JackBrown"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

rochesterteenset — 2013-10-10T01:30:54Z

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	+ ------ + ''2013-10-09 21:30:54'' [[nbsp]] i wrote an article about the funny farm store how do i add the info i researched to this page?? --["Users/rochesterteenset"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

AndrewAnissi — 2012-04-25T23:37:51Z

where is spaghetti warehouse?

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	+ + --------------- + + -2012-["Users/AndrewAnissi"] How is Spaghetti Warehouse not listed in this section? That was an awesome place.

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

peteb — 2011-06-20T03:11:00Z

missed a "

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- * Place a "See ["Gone, But Not Forgotten"]. entry at top of text.	+ * Place a "See ["Gone, But Not Forgotten"]" entry at top of text.

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

peteb — 2011-06-20T02:53:27Z

there wasn't a june 6, 2011 meeting :)

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- ''' Editing Changes for Closed Entries''' (From June 6, 2011 wiki meeting)	+ ''' Editing Changes for Closed Entries''' (From June 19, 2011 wiki meeting)

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

Damiankumor — 2011-06-20T02:16:57Z

updated

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- '''PROPOSED Editing Suggestions for Closed Entries - July 28, 2009 - ''' --["Users/BradMandell"]	+ ''' Editing Changes for Closed Entries''' (From June 6, 2011 wiki meeting)
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- * place a "See ["Gone, But Not Forgotten"]. entry at top of text.	+ * Place a "See ["Gone, But Not Forgotten"]. entry at top of text.
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- * Remove links to categories so that these ''CLOSED'' entries do not appear of the "'''LINKED TO'''" list for the category pages. For example - change {{{ "was a ["Restarurants" restaurant]" to "was a restaurant" }}}
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- - '''NOTE''' Jan 16, 2009: See [http://rocwiki.org/Gone%2C_But_Not_Forgotten/Talk?action=recall&version=30 Previous Revision] for archival information on prior proposals by ["Users/BradMandell" Brad Mandell] -	+ * Remove links to the page from other pages unless it's not appropriate + * Add a link on the ["Gone, But Not Forgotten"] page

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

peteb — 2009-07-28T23:30:06Z

updated proposal

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- '''PROPOSED Editing Suggestions for Closed Entries - October 1, 2008 - ''' --["Users/BradMandell"]	+ '''PROPOSED Editing Suggestions for Closed Entries - July 28, 2009 - ''' --["Users/BradMandell"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

peteb — 2009-07-28T23:28:24Z

updated process

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- * Leave "'''Hours'''" header in and place "CLOSED" entry below as appropriate to entry. For entries which do not normally have Hours, then create a CLOSED or similar header.	+ * Change "'''Hours'''" header to "'''Status'''" and place "CLOSED" entry (with a closed date if available--month-year or year is fine) below as appropriate to entry. For entries which do not normally have Hours, then create a Status or similar header.

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

peteb — 2009-07-28T23:01:18Z

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	+ ------ + ''2009-07-28 19:01:18'' [[nbsp]] Recommend removing all closing date info from GBNF...all the closed items have closing dates on them individually as best I could figure out --["Users/PeteB"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

BradMandell — 2009-01-16T17:42:17Z

Cut out previous old proposal and link to archival revision for ref

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- '''PROPOSED Editing Suggestions - October 1, 2008 - ''' --["Users/BradMandell"]	+ '''PROPOSED Editing Suggestions for Closed Entries - October 1, 2008 - ''' --["Users/BradMandell"]
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- ---- - '''PREVIOUS PROPOSALS FOR DISCUSSION: - Sep 10, 2008 - ''' --["Users/BradMandell"] - - '''See my October 1, 2008 comment below.''' - - The following is a major revision and I have attempted to incorporate previous comments and suggestions. For Previous discussion of '''Historical Listings''' please see [http://rocwiki.org/Gone%2C_But_Not_Forgotten/Talk?action=recall&version=11 Version 11 of this page] and [http://rocwiki.org/3S_Restaurant_%26_Cafe/Talk?action=recall&version=2 3S Restaurant Talk Version 2]. --["Users/BradMandell"] - ---- - ==Proposal for implementing '''Archived''' status for information within RocWiki== - - * I will use the term Archivable to mean some entry that needs change due to being closed, death gone, ... - * To be distinguished from '''Renamed''' which can be addressed by redirects. - * The actual term is up for discussion, I use ''Archived'' here as a recommendation and placeholder - - '''Archived''' status within RocWiki means that '''some or all''' of the information content of a previous RocWiki entry or entries may be useful for a historical researcher but not useful for display to the casual RocWiki browser (and RocWiki Search, external searches, web crawlers, etc.) except to let them know identifying information (and possibly relevant keywords) of the archival status of the information. For instance: - Person: died, moved away, retired, withdrew, was replaced, ... - Business: closed, relocated out of the area, absorbed into a new business, ... - Organization - Terminated, relocated out of area, reorganized, repurposed, absorbed into another organization. - Place: closed, no longer useful, use changed, ... - Thing: not available, no longer used, banned, ... - Event: cancelled, absorbed, discontinued, ... - Venue: closed, repurposed, ... - Proposal: cancelled, replaced, withdrawn ... - - '''Some Considerations''': - * Timeliness: limit the time an Archivable page (outdated) remains the Current Revision - * Manpower: make most effective use of Editor/Contributor resources - * Useful Information: retain attractiveness and power of RocWiki for normal users and researchers - * Search Engine Access: control non-active content access - * Anticipate future RocWiki technology upgrades and apply consistent manual templates, rules, etc to support simplified and automated conversion tasks. - - ---- - SUGGESTION for Archival listings and Archival Reference pages: - - '''General''' - * '''Now versus later''': the sooner we can agree on an approach and simple techniques for implementing them manually, the sooner RocWiki looks good. Proposals should include straightforward manual steps as well as possible automated assists. - * '''Editor Time''': the less time it takes for an editor to perform the steps, the quicker we get caught up, the more time they have for other editing, and the more likely we are to stay up to date. - * '''Future RocWiki implementations''': to the extent we can standardize style elements within RocWiki with future CSS (or similar) in mind, the easier it will be to automate the future conversion. More on this subject in following discussions and in separate discussions regarding '''Templates''', etc. - * '''Browser View''': in our design considerations we should forget our "RocWikian" perspective and adopt the view of ''someone'' or ''somecrawler'' viewing a page with no other "RocWiki" context. - - '''Address Macro Implications''' - For the current revision of any RocWiki Page (and those accessible to search engines) the Address Macro should be restricted to entries where the Person, Place, or Thing is still directly associated with the location and the text of the page correctly reflects the current association. - This restriction will prevent outdated entities from appearing on current Map Icon displayed maps. We will discuss further some features to support map display of Archived entries. - - '''Retaining address information''' - the ArchiveAddr macro would create a linked map address, no MAP symbol and the Gone places would not appear on the map for nearby locations. A future facility for seeing Archived entries on a map would depend on demand and usefulness. I would volunteer to write an "Archived Data Help Page" with suggestions or tools for searching Archived pages. - - '''What Text to preserve in ''CURRENT'' Page''' - The archive process should result in a '''''Current''''' page containing notice of archival (suggestions below) and only that content that is useful to the casual browser, search engines, and such. Researchers, the decidedly curious, etc can access the archived material via a link to the Archived Revision NR. - The remaining content on the CURRENT page should be concise and correct as to tense and any historic information should be clearly marked. Remember that any RocWiki links on the page will result in ''Links To'' references on the Linked-To-page's ''Info'' and could be used by automated tools. - Some examples of preserved historical data on current page: - * Header Formatted info (color selection for example purposes only) - \|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''Previous Phone Number'''\|\| - \|\| 585 xxx xxxx\|\| - \|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''Previous Website'''\|\| - \|\|http://www.TheirOldWebAddress.com\|\| - * Retained description topic sentence: - * '''This Old Restaurant''', CLOSED in August 2008, was . . . - * '''XYZ Inc''', formerly manufacturing in ["Greece"] moved to Mexico in July 2006 as a result of our NAFTA policies. - * '''John Smith''' was the President of ["Sample Organization"] from xxx to yyy and was succeeded by ["Sample, Ima Person"] - * '''FunPlaceUSA''' was an active venue until 2008 when it was closed due to neighbors' complaints. Most future events will be staged at ["Sample Venue"] - * Retained detail information: - An editor may decide to retain additional, detailed information if it were to be of general interest or might yield important results for someone searching (or web crawling) RocWiki. We may need additional discussion on this subject, including potential tools for Archival Search (current revision -1 or tagged Archive Page). - - '''Color Coded and Text Annotated Header's in Current Page''': - * '''RATIONALE''': Standardize all Headers on Active Current Pages of Archived page with a distinct and uniform color for any retained (Archived) information so that it stands out to visual users and includes a standard Text Coding for non-visual and search engine browsers. The selection of color should follow some reasonable or externally familiar approach such as RED GREEN YELLOW for Stop, Go, Caution, etc. Some examples: - * Change LOCATION to FORMER LOCATION - - * Discussion: The header is otherwise incorrect. We want correct information for a browser coming directly into a RocWiki page from a bookmark, link or search engine result, as well as search engine crawlers. - * Add Header CLOSED, DECEASED, RELOCATED FROM AREA, ... as appropriate to subject of content. - * Discussion: Placing a color coded header with standardized text makes the entry stand out. The associated text can describe the rationale. If we create a standardized result that could be automated with a Macro, then we can get started manually and start using the Macro when it is available. - - Example suggestions (color for example only): - * Presumes Manual based on standards or some Macros such as (may be combined if missing arguments control results) - {{{ [[Archive("CLOSED", "July 2008","The owners moved out of the area.")]]}}} - {{{ [[ArchiveRev("13")]] - generates appropriate link reference}}} - {{{ [[ArchiveAddr("35 Chestnut Street, Rochester NY, 14604")]]}}} - {{{ [[ArchiveLink("Gone But Not Forgotten")]]}}} - ABOVE MACROS OR MANUAL EDIT RESULTS IN: - \|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''3S Restaurant & Cafe CLOSED July 2008'''\|\| - \|\|Manual or Macro Type and date\|\| - \|\|The owners moved out of the area.\|\| - \|\|Manual or Macro reason for action\|\| - \|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''Archived On: YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM'''\|\| - \|\|Manual or Macro\|\| - \|\|'''[http://rocwiki.org/3S_Restaurant_%26_Cafe?action=recall&version=11 VIEW Archived Data]'''\|\| - \|\|Manual or Macro link to last active revision\|\| - \|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''Former Location'''\|\| - \|\|Manual or Macro if entry has location info\|\| - \|\|[http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=35+Chestnut+Street,+Rochester+NY,+14604 35 Chestnut Street, Rochester NY, 14604]\|\| - \|\|Manual or Macro maybe Google, maybe new macro\|\| - \|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''See''' ["Gone, But Not Forgotten"]\|\| - \|\|Manual or Macro category list - may need to expand\|\| - {{{## \|\|[[Address("35 Chestnut Street, Rochester NY, 14604")]] \|\|}}} preserve old as comment?? - - '''Google Map''' - can be manually encoded from template example and addr info - {{{[http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=35+Chestnut+Street,+Rochester+NY,+14604}}} - {{{35 Chestnut Street, Rochester NY, 14604]}}} - - '''Existing Content of Page Options'''; - * ''Eliminate everything else'' - all available in the Archived reference - * ''Eliminate all but key search related material'' for RocWiki and search engines. rewrite should be correct in tense and current state. Must begin with a bolded PageName topic with CLOSED or appropriate reason, immediately after the bolded topic. - * ''Substantive rewrite'' of the text to recast it as an archival, but searchable entry - take care that this will not result in invalid references to information within wik (wiki links) or for external searches. Include similar bolded PageName CLOSED as above. - - '''Using Indent on preserved historical data:''' - - If we retain data in the non-archived page we might consider indenting the information for stand- out: - - Indent and retain any useful table info, but delete any other formatted header entries that are no longer valid. Some might argue that it might be useful to have that old info just for "memory lane" purposes ("Oh, so that was the number we have saved on the refrig !!"). The Archived Page with a direct Link in the entry can be the source. - - Color coding below reflects continued use of the current RocWiki standard for table entries (data still valid and or relevant) - \|\|<bgcolor='#E0E0FF'>'''Phone'''\|\| - \|\|585 000 0000\|\| - \|\|Still active, previous owner taking phone orders for some products\|\| - \|\|<bgcolor='#E0E0FF'>'''Accessible'''\|\| - \|\|They used to ....... to help folks get in the store\|\| - \|\|<bgcolor='#E0E0FF'>'''Reviews'''\|\| - \|\|Click on the View Archive Link above to see why this place went out of business\|\| - - Indent rest of entries so that the original info is indented from the Topic CLOSED - - '''RATIONALE:''' Indentation makes the data more a footnote and less likely for the CLOSED to be missed. We probably need to agree on what stays and what goes - there was a big variance in the existing entries - some kept some of the info, some put CLOSED in all the some entries and parts of entries. - - '''Adding TOP ARCHIVED FLAG to Archive Page''' - - The Archived page that is the last Revision before Closing should contain a Distinct Header at the top which could be completed manually or via a Macro or other tool. Note color selection for example purposes only. - {{{[[ArchiveHdr(YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM')]]}}} - maybe Automate Date and Revision Nr?? - {{{\|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''ARCHIVED ENTRY: Warning - may contain outdated or incorrect data'''\|\|}}} - {{{\|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''Archived On: YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM - Revision NN'''\|\|}}} - - RESULTING IN: - \|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''ARCHIVED ENTRY: Warning - may contain outdated or incorrect data'''\|\| - \|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''Archived On: YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM - Revision NN'''\|\| - - ===SUMMARY OF PROPOSED EDITOR ACTION=== - - Upon finding an entry that should be Closed, the Editor would complete the following steps. Some variations will depend on availability of tools and Macros. - - * '''Save the last Non-Closed entry''' for archive purposes with appropriate header. Completed either: manual, using an Archive Header Macro or some Close Entry Tool that automates these steps. The editor may decide to do some rewrite on the preserved Archive page to convert tense and context, but so long as it has the Header, it may be retained intact as an Archived Record. - * '''Add Standard Archive Entries''' to head of entry. May be completed manually, using macros, or some automated tool. - * '''Delete Unnecessary Headers and Text''' - trade-offs regarding RocWiki and search engine access to information versus time to rewrite. - * '''Edit Remaining Data''' -rewrite and caste all information in its historic context to prevent misunderstanding of the viewer. Also care regarding any RocWiki Links Into and OutOf the page. - * '''Save the CLOSED Entry''' - - * '''Select and Update Closed Catergory Page''' - make entry in ["Gone, but Not Forgotten"] or other closed category page. - * '''Check Links''' - Refer to the ''Info - Links - Links To This Page'' and ''Links from this Page'' and make any appropriate changes to the current page or the linked pages. For example - entry is linked-to by a strip mall listing of businesses, probably should be deleted from the strip mall page and have the Closed Entry page have a link-to the strip mall to preserve that historical connection. Similarly, a restaurant of a particular category would be eliminated from the category in the Restaurant List, but have a reference to the category in the Closed entry. - * '''Save the new ''CLOSED Entry'''''	+ '''NOTE''' Jan 16, 2009: See [http://rocwiki.org/Gone%2C_But_Not_Forgotten/Talk?action=recall&version=30 Previous Revision] for archival information on prior proposals by ["Users/BradMandell" Brad Mandell]
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- ==ACTION ITEMS== - - * Review and comment on proposal - * Come to agreement on way forward - * Brad volunteers to convert content above, with agreed upon changes, into a Help Page for Editors, updates to any Wiki Community pages and a Help page for Searching - * Get started cleaning up the Closed entries to comply with the decisions - - ----

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

ShannonLane — 2009-01-04T03:09:12Z

Comment added.

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	+ ------ + ''2009-01-03 22:09:12'' [[nbsp]] You should add Tano's pizza grill to the "gone but not forgotten" list. --["Users/ShannonLane"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

alexandergartley — 2008-10-08T20:16:37Z

fixed wiki link to Park Avenue

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- ''2008-09-09 23:39:55'' [[nbsp]] Pete, your comments are available directly via the LINK at the top fo this page. I understand your question completely and have addressed it specifically above toward the end in '''Existing Content of Page'''. The retained (and searchable entry would have the name of the place, and the address text PLUS whatever the Closing Editor deemed as keyword or key text for search retention. For many of the CLOSED entries, nothing more need be retained. Further, it might be more appropriate to include some descriptive text in the corresponding Gone But Not Forgotten entry - for example "Closed Restaruant -- Mexican, casual, served ["Park Aveune"] district prior to ["2004"]" --["Users/BradMandell"]	+ ''2008-09-09 23:39:55'' [[nbsp]] Pete, your comments are available directly via the LINK at the top fo this page. I understand your question completely and have addressed it specifically above toward the end in '''Existing Content of Page'''. The retained (and searchable entry would have the name of the place, and the address text PLUS whatever the Closing Editor deemed as keyword or key text for search retention. For many of the CLOSED entries, nothing more need be retained. Further, it might be more appropriate to include some descriptive text in the corresponding Gone But Not Forgotten entry - for example "Closed Restaruant -- Mexican, casual, served ["Park Avenue"] district prior to ["2004"]" --["Users/BradMandell"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

peteb — 2008-10-01T22:22:22Z

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	+ ------ + ''2008-10-01 18:22:22'' [[nbsp]] I think it looks better as you're doing it now Brad --["Users/PeteB"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

BradMandell — 2008-10-01T22:05:39Z

Document my suggested changes pending any future decisions on Archiving

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- '''PROPOSALS FOR DISCUSSION: - Sep 10, 2008 - ''' --["Users/BradMandell"]	+ '''PROPOSED Editing Suggestions - October 1, 2008 - ''' --["Users/BradMandell"] + * Change "'''Location'''" to "'''Former Location'''" in header + * Remove ''Address Macro'' from around actual address to remove entries from Maps + * Leave "'''Hours'''" header in and place "CLOSED" entry below as appropriate to entry. For entries which do not normally have Hours, then create a CLOSED or similar header. + * Remove invalid information like phone, website addresses unless they are still valid. Put in some documentation about the residual validity ("former owner keeps the line open" - national chain website address, etc). + * place a "See ["Gone, But Not Forgotten"]. entry at top of text. + * Indenting the remnant information helps it to stand out, especially if the text is not changed to past tense, etc. + * Remove links to categories so that these ''CLOSED'' entries do not appear of the "'''LINKED TO'''" list for the category pages. For example - change {{{ "was a ["Restarurants" restaurant]" to "was a restaurant" }}} + * Editors may choose to modify the text to past tense and remove invalid or no longer appropriate text. + + ---- + '''PREVIOUS PROPOSALS FOR DISCUSSION: - Sep 10, 2008 - ''' --["Users/BradMandell"] + + '''See my October 1, 2008 comment below.'''

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

BradMandell — 2008-10-01T21:27:53Z

Comment added.

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	+ ------ + ''2008-10-01 17:27:53'' [[nbsp]] There has been no further discussion and no consensus reached about color coding or additional Archive macros. + + There seems to be some agreement and a compelling issue to remove the Address Macros from the entries to clean up the Maps. + + There is also a need to unlink the entries from their categories so they don't appear in a Linked To list on the Category pages. Keeping the text will keep them in Search results. + + There is also a need to remove invalid information such as outdated phone numbers, website addresses, old reviews that are now bad links or links to invalid information. Retaining a lot of invalid web links within RocWiki could impact its search engine scores for reliability. + + To that end, I am going through the listings and performing those edits as well as removing the color coding and whimsy changes which some found objectionable. + + I will update this page later. + --["Users/BradMandell"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

BradMandell — 2008-09-12T14:32:39Z

update my comment since dupe was deleted

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- ''2008-09-10 12:07:16'' [[nbsp]] Wow - thats a bug - and I think I have see it before. I believe that if you Post a Comment or save an edit, the resulting displayed page thinks it is still in Preview Mode. If you happen to F5 refresh, or go back to the page with Back and Forward buttons, you can get the strange result of double posting the same Comment or Change. --["Users/BradMandell"]	+ ''2008-09-10 12:07:16'' [[nbsp]] Wow - thats a bug ''(refers to duplicate posting of above message, subsequently deleted)'' - and I think I have see it before. I believe that if you Post a Comment or save an edit, the resulting displayed page thinks it is still in Preview Mode. If you happen to F5 refresh, or go back to the page with Back and Forward buttons, you can get the strange result of double posting the same Comment or Change. --["Users/BradMandell"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

peteb — 2008-09-12T04:16:52Z

removed duplicate comment

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- ''2008-09-10 12:03:01'' [[nbsp]] Dave, Can you point me to (or send me) any documentation on what CSS facilities are available and what RocWiki- specific parameters are currently avaliable or planned. I will be glad to then update the proposal to include that information. Thanks - got prep for, conference call, and follow-up until later this afternoon/evening. Will check back later. --["Users/BradMandell"] - ------

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

DaveMahon — 2008-09-12T04:03:42Z

Comment added.

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	+ ------ + ''2008-09-12 00:03:42'' [[nbsp]] Since RocWiki uses a table based layout, we're limited to CSS Level 1, which allows us automated formatting, but no layout control. And AdminGroup member would add code to the site CSS resembling {{{td.header {background-color:#E0E0FF;font-weight:bold;} td.closed {background-color:##ffe0e0;} }}}. Then the contributor would create the table using markup like {{{\|\|<class='header'>Address\|\|}}} or {{{\|\|<class='closed'>Address\|\|}}}. The browser would automatically apply the formatting consistently across every page using the class markup and it would also make it easier to provide voice or print formatting as well. --["Users/DaveMahon"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

BradMandell — 2008-09-10T16:07:16Z

Comment added.

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	+ ------ + ''2008-09-10 12:07:16'' [[nbsp]] Wow - thats a bug - and I think I have see it before. I believe that if you Post a Comment or save an edit, the resulting displayed page thinks it is still in Preview Mode. If you happen to F5 refresh, or go back to the page with Back and Forward buttons, you can get the strange result of double posting the same Comment or Change. --["Users/BradMandell"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

BradMandell — 2008-09-10T16:03:01Z

Comment added.

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	+ ------ + ''2008-09-10 12:03:01'' [[nbsp]] Dave, Can you point me to (or send me) any documentation on what CSS facilities are available and what RocWiki- specific parameters are currently avaliable or planned. I will be glad to then update the proposal to include that information. Thanks - got prep for, conference call, and follow-up until later this afternoon/evening. Will check back later. --["Users/BradMandell"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

BradMandell — 2008-09-10T15:20:26Z

Comment added.

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	+ ------ + ''2008-09-10 11:20:26'' [[nbsp]] Dave, Can you point me to (or send me) any documentation on what CSS facilities are available and what RocWiki- specific parameters are currently avaliable or planned. I will be glad to then update the proposal to include that information. Thanks - got prep for, conference call, and follow-up until later this afternoon/evening. Will check back later. --["Users/BradMandell"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

DaveMahon — 2008-09-10T14:24:50Z

amended my comment

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- ''2008-09-10 10:15:49'' [[nbsp]] A note on implementation. Instead of setting bgcolor in our tables, we can just set {{{class='closed'}}} and then use the site CSS to update the colors as needed. Likewise, we should probably transition to using {{{class='heading'}}} to set our lovely blue table headers. --["Users/DaveMahon"]	+ ''2008-09-10 10:15:49'' [[nbsp]] A note on implementation. Instead of setting bgcolor in our tables, we can just set {{{class='closed'}}} and then use the site CSS to update the colors as needed. Likewise, we should probably transition to using {{{class='heading'}}} to set our lovely blue table headers. Using classes also eliminates the need to manually bold the text, which will help with mismatched quotes. --["Users/DaveMahon"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

DaveMahon — 2008-09-10T14:15:49Z

Comment added.

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	+ ------ + ''2008-09-10 10:15:49'' [[nbsp]] A note on implementation. Instead of setting bgcolor in our tables, we can just set {{{class='closed'}}} and then use the site CSS to update the colors as needed. Likewise, we should probably transition to using {{{class='heading'}}} to set our lovely blue table headers. --["Users/DaveMahon"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

BradMandell — 2008-09-10T13:27:30Z

DRAFT PROPOSAL READY FOR COMMENTS

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- '''REVISED PROPOSALS/DISCUSSIONS - Sep 9, 2008 - WORK IN PROGRESS WITH INTERIM SAVES - PLEASE HOLD OFF EDIT OR COMMENTS UNTIL THIS LINE IS UPDATED - THANKS''' --["Users/BradMandell"]	+ '''PROPOSALS FOR DISCUSSION: - Sep 10, 2008 - ''' --["Users/BradMandell"]
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- ==Proposed '''Archived''' status for information within RocWiki==	+ ==Proposal for implementing '''Archived''' status for information within RocWiki==
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- * Timeliness: limit time an Archivable page remains Current	+ * Timeliness: limit the time an Archivable page (outdated) remains the Current Revision
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	+ '''Retaining address information''' - the ArchiveAddr macro would create a linked map address, no MAP symbol and the Gone places would not appear on the map for nearby locations. A future facility for seeing Archived entries on a map would depend on demand and usefulness. I would volunteer to write an "Archived Data Help Page" with suggestions or tools for searching Archived pages. +
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- The remaining content on the CURRENT page should be concise and correct as to tense and any historic information should be clearly marked. Remember that any RocWiki links on the page will result in Links To references on the linked-to-page's Info and could be used by automated tools. - Some examples:	+ The remaining content on the CURRENT page should be concise and correct as to tense and any historic information should be clearly marked. Remember that any RocWiki links on the page will result in ''Links To'' references on the Linked-To-page's ''Info'' and could be used by automated tools. + Some examples of preserved historical data on current page:
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- \|\|<bgcolor='#E00000'>'''Previous Phone Number'''\|\|	+ \|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''Previous Phone Number'''\|\|
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- \|\|<bgcolor='#E00000'>'''Previous Website'''\|\|	+ \|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''Previous Website'''\|\|
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- An editor may decide to retain additional, detailed information if it were to be of general interest or might yield important results for someone searching (or web crawling) RocWiki. We made need additional discussion on this subject, including potential tools for Archival Search (current revision -1 or tagged Archive Page).	+ An editor may decide to retain additional, detailed information if it were to be of general interest or might yield important results for someone searching (or web crawling) RocWiki. We may need additional discussion on this subject, including potential tools for Archival Search (current revision -1 or tagged Archive Page).
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- * Presumes Manual based on standards or some Macros such as	+ * Presumes Manual based on standards or some Macros such as (may be combined if missing arguments control results)
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-	+ ABOVE MACROS OR MANUAL EDIT RESULTS IN:
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- \|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''Archived On: YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM:SS'''\|\| - \|\|Manual or Macro\|\| - \|\|'''[http://rocwiki.org/3S_Restaurant_%26_Cafe?action=recall&version=11 VIEW Historical Data]'''\|\| - \|\|Manual or Macro link to last active revision\|\|	+ \|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''Archived On: YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM'''\|\| - \|\|Manual or Macro\|\| + \|\|'''[http://rocwiki.org/3S_Restaurant_%26_Cafe?action=recall&version=11 VIEW Archived Data]'''\|\| - \|\|Manual or Macro link to last active revision\|\|
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	+ \|\|[http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=35+Chestnut+Street,+Rochester+NY,+14604 35 Chestnut Street, Rochester NY, 14604]\|\| - \|\|Manual or Macro maybe Google, maybe new macro\|\| + \|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''See''' ["Gone, But Not Forgotten"]\|\| - \|\|Manual or Macro category list - may need to expand\|\|
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- \|\|[http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=35+Chestnut+Street,+Rochester+NY,+14604 35 Chestnut Street, Rochester NY, 14604]\|\| - \|\|Manual or Macro maybe Google, maybe new macro\|\| - \|\|'''See''' ["Gone, But Not Forgotten"]\|\| - \|\|Manual or Macro category list - may need to expand\|\|
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- '''Existing Content of Page'''; - * Eliminate everything else - all available in the Archived reference - * Eliminate all but critical material which should be searchable, including search engines. rewrite should be correct in tense and current state. Must begin with a bolded PageName topic with CLOSED or appropriate reason, immediately after the bolded topic. - * Substantive rewrite of the text to recast it as an archival, but searchable entry - take care that this will not result in invalid references to information within wik (wiki links) or for external searches. Include similare bolded PageName CLOSED as above.	+ '''Google Map''' - can be manually encoded from template example and addr info + {{{[http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=35+Chestnut+Street,+Rochester+NY,+14604}}} + {{{35 Chestnut Street, Rochester NY, 14604]}}} + + '''Existing Content of Page Options'''; + * ''Eliminate everything else'' - all available in the Archived reference + * ''Eliminate all but key search related material'' for RocWiki and search engines. rewrite should be correct in tense and current state. Must begin with a bolded PageName topic with CLOSED or appropriate reason, immediately after the bolded topic. + * ''Substantive rewrite'' of the text to recast it as an archival, but searchable entry - take care that this will not result in invalid references to information within wik (wiki links) or for external searches. Include similar bolded PageName CLOSED as above. + + '''Using Indent on preserved historical data:''' + + If we retain data in the non-archived page we might consider indenting the information for stand- out: + + Indent and retain any useful table info, but delete any other formatted header entries that are no longer valid. Some might argue that it might be useful to have that old info just for "memory lane" purposes ("Oh, so that was the number we have saved on the refrig !!"). The Archived Page with a direct Link in the entry can be the source. + + Color coding below reflects continued use of the current RocWiki standard for table entries (data still valid and or relevant) + \|\|<bgcolor='#E0E0FF'>'''Phone'''\|\| + \|\|585 000 0000\|\| + \|\|Still active, previous owner taking phone orders for some products\|\| + \|\|<bgcolor='#E0E0FF'>'''Accessible'''\|\| + \|\|They used to ....... to help folks get in the store\|\| + \|\|<bgcolor='#E0E0FF'>'''Reviews'''\|\| + \|\|Click on the View Archive Link above to see why this place went out of business\|\| + + Indent rest of entries so that the original info is indented from the Topic CLOSED + + '''RATIONALE:''' Indentation makes the data more a footnote and less likely for the CLOSED to be missed. We probably need to agree on what stays and what goes - there was a big variance in the existing entries - some kept some of the info, some put CLOSED in all the some entries and parts of entries. + + '''Adding TOP ARCHIVED FLAG to Archive Page''' + + The Archived page that is the last Revision before Closing should contain a Distinct Header at the top which could be completed manually or via a Macro or other tool. Note color selection for example purposes only. + {{{[[ArchiveHdr(YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM')]]}}} - maybe Automate Date and Revision Nr?? + {{{\|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''ARCHIVED ENTRY: Warning - may contain outdated or incorrect data'''\|\|}}} + {{{\|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''Archived On: YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM - Revision NN'''\|\|}}} + + RESULTING IN: + \|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''ARCHIVED ENTRY: Warning - may contain outdated or incorrect data'''\|\| + \|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''Archived On: YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM - Revision NN'''\|\| + + ===SUMMARY OF PROPOSED EDITOR ACTION=== + + Upon finding an entry that should be Closed, the Editor would complete the following steps. Some variations will depend on availability of tools and Macros. + + * '''Save the last Non-Closed entry''' for archive purposes with appropriate header. Completed either: manual, using an Archive Header Macro or some Close Entry Tool that automates these steps. The editor may decide to do some rewrite on the preserved Archive page to convert tense and context, but so long as it has the Header, it may be retained intact as an Archived Record. + * '''Add Standard Archive Entries''' to head of entry. May be completed manually, using macros, or some automated tool. + * '''Delete Unnecessary Headers and Text''' - trade-offs regarding RocWiki and search engine access to information versus time to rewrite. + * '''Edit Remaining Data''' -rewrite and caste all information in its historic context to prevent misunderstanding of the viewer. Also care regarding any RocWiki Links Into and OutOf the page. + * '''Save the CLOSED Entry''' - + * '''Select and Update Closed Catergory Page''' - make entry in ["Gone, but Not Forgotten"] or other closed category page. + * '''Check Links''' - Refer to the ''Info - Links - Links To This Page'' and ''Links from this Page'' and make any appropriate changes to the current page or the linked pages. For example - entry is linked-to by a strip mall listing of businesses, probably should be deleted from the strip mall page and have the Closed Entry page have a link-to the strip mall to preserve that historical connection. Similarly, a restaurant of a particular category would be eliminated from the category in the Restaurant List, but have a reference to the category in the Closed entry. + * '''Save the new ''CLOSED Entry'''''
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- -------------------------------- TO BE COMPLETED SEP 10th or 11th -----------------------------------------------	+ ==ACTION ITEMS==
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- '''Retaining address information''' - the ArchiveAddr macro would create a linked map address, no MAP symbol and the Gone places would not appear on the map for nearby locations. A future facility for seeing Archived entries on a map would depend on demand and usefulness. - - If we retain data in the non-archived page we might consider indenting the information for stand- out: - - Indent and retain any useful table info, but delete any other formatted header entries that are no longer valid. Some might argue that it might be useful to have that old info just for "memory lane" purposes ("Oh, so that was the number we have saved on the refrig !!") - any preserved data may be compacted perhaps (see below). We do not want to cause folks to get unwanted phone calls from our out-of-date info. - \|\|<bgcolor='#E0E0FF'>'''Phone''' - 585 000 0000\|\| Still active, xxxx\|\| - \|\|<bgcolor='#E0E0FF'>'''Accessible''' - Yes\|\| - \|\|<bgcolor='#E0E0FF'>'''Reviews'''\|\| - - Indent rest of entries so that the original info is indented from the Topic CLOSED - - '''RATIONALE:''' Indentation makes the data more a footnote and less likely for the CLOSED to be missed. Compacting the data made sense to me since it was historical data. We probably need to agree on what stays and what goes - there was a big variance in the existing entries - some kept some of the info, some put CLOSED in all the some entries and parts of entries. In previous data base and presentation tasks I have worked on, we did data compaction both for reduction of data size, but also to distinguish old from new data.	+ * Review and comment on proposal + * Come to agreement on way forward + * Brad volunteers to convert content above, with agreed upon changes, into a Help Page for Editors, updates to any Wiki Community pages and a Help page for Searching + * Get started cleaning up the Closed entries to comply with the decisions

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

BradMandell — 2008-09-10T03:39:55Z

Comment added.

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	+ ------ + ''2008-09-09 23:39:55'' [[nbsp]] Pete, your comments are available directly via the LINK at the top fo this page. I understand your question completely and have addressed it specifically above toward the end in '''Existing Content of Page'''. The retained (and searchable entry would have the name of the place, and the address text PLUS whatever the Closing Editor deemed as keyword or key text for search retention. For many of the CLOSED entries, nothing more need be retained. Further, it might be more appropriate to include some descriptive text in the corresponding Gone But Not Forgotten entry - for example "Closed Restaruant -- Mexican, casual, served ["Park Aveune"] district prior to ["2004"]" --["Users/BradMandell"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

peteb — 2008-09-10T03:23:05Z

Comment added.

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	+ ------ + ''2008-09-09 23:23:05'' [[nbsp]] My comments from earlier are now gone.... but Dave, some of the addresses here are a very strong part of the history of each of these businesses. What if it is a new user who doesn't understand how to look up history??? Are we making it MORE DIFFICULT to let people find the info they may want? --["Users/PeteB"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

BradMandell — 2008-09-10T03:18:33Z

more updates - will try to finish tomorrow morning.

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- {{{ [[ArchiveLink(	+ {{{ [[ArchiveLink("Gone But Not Forgotten")]]}}} +
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- \|\|See ["Gone, But Not Forgotten"]\|\| - \|\|Manual or Macro category list - may need to expand\|\|	+ \|\|'''See''' ["Gone, But Not Forgotten"]\|\| - \|\|Manual or Macro category list - may need to expand\|\|
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- '''Cross-Links within RocWiki'''	+ '''Existing Content of Page'''; + * Eliminate everything else - all available in the Archived reference + * Eliminate all but critical material which should be searchable, including search engines. rewrite should be correct in tense and current state. Must begin with a bolded PageName topic with CLOSED or appropriate reason, immediately after the bolded topic. + * Substantive rewrite of the text to recast it as an archival, but searchable entry - take care that this will not result in invalid references to information within wik (wiki links) or for external searches. Include similare bolded PageName CLOSED as above.
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- Add the back link to the Gone - we need it somewhere - why not here - it says it all
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- 2. Retain address information - maybe RocWiki should have an historic address macro that would create a linked map address, no MAP symbol and the Gone places would not appear on the map for nearby locations. For the time being, I am not removing the Address macros '''SUGGESTIONS???'''	+ -------------------------------- TO BE COMPLETED SEP 10th or 11th -----------------------------------------------
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- '''RATIONALE:''' Still awaiting any suggestions - but if it were up to me I would have created a separate macro to allow historical mapping to be handled differently and not clutter up active entry maps - still giving the viewer a quick look at where the entry used to be.	+ '''Retaining address information''' - the ArchiveAddr macro would create a linked map address, no MAP symbol and the Gone places would not appear on the map for nearby locations. A future facility for seeing Archived entries on a map would depend on demand and usefulness.
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- 3. Insert the bolded topic with CLOSED in - '''This Old Restaurant''', CLOSED in August 2008, was:	+ If we retain data in the non-archived page we might consider indenting the information for stand- out:
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- '''RATIONALE:''' put this right under the top two lines and don't ident it since it is now the current Factual side for the entry. - - 4. Indent and retain any useful info, but delete any other formatted header entries that are no longer valid. Some might argue that it might be useful to have that old info just for "memory lane" purposes ("Oh, so that was the number we have saved on the refrig !!") - any preserved data may be compacted perhaps (see below). We do not want to cause folks to get unwanted phone calls from our out-of-date info. - \|\|<bgcolor='#E0E0FF'>'''Phone''' - 585 000 0000\|\|	+ Indent and retain any useful table info, but delete any other formatted header entries that are no longer valid. Some might argue that it might be useful to have that old info just for "memory lane" purposes ("Oh, so that was the number we have saved on the refrig !!") - any preserved data may be compacted perhaps (see below). We do not want to cause folks to get unwanted phone calls from our out-of-date info. + \|\|<bgcolor='#E0E0FF'>'''Phone''' - 585 000 0000\|\| Still active, xxxx\|\|
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- 5 Indent rest of entries so that the original info is indented from the Topic CLOSED	+ Indent rest of entries so that the original info is indented from the Topic CLOSED
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	+
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- - '''COMMENT FROM PETEB:''' I am sorry, Brad, but I do not like this reformatting at all. #1: It wasn't really discussed by the community before agreeing to go ahead and do it on full tilt on all the closed businesses. #2: I find the format to be visually very unappealing and less than professional. Really think the old format worked fine. - '''COMMENT FROM BRAD:''' I added my RATIONALE above, happy to hear folks comments and suggestions, as I said, I halted any more changes and will be happy to restore things to whatever folks decide. I have been doing this professional since 1967, so I ignore the "professional" aspect. -	+ -------------------------------SOME PREVIOUS COMMENTS RETAINED----------------
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- ------ - ''2008-09-04 10:04:44'' [[nbsp]] Please see["3S Restaurant & Cafe/Talk"] [http://rocwiki.org/3S_Restaurant_%26_Cafe/Talk] for additional discussion about the Closed Macro (and manual edits prior) as well as examples of alternatives based on Whimsy, compactness, etc. --["Users/BradMandell"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

BradMandell — 2008-09-09T17:25:34Z

CONTINUED ACTIVE EDIT - WORK IN PROGRESS

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	+ ==Proposed '''Archived''' status for information within RocWiki==
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	+ * I will use the term Archivable to mean some entry that needs change due to being closed, death gone, ... + * To be distinguished from '''Renamed''' which can be addressed by redirects. + * The actual term is up for discussion, I use ''Archived'' here as a recommendation and placeholder + + '''Archived''' status within RocWiki means that '''some or all''' of the information content of a previous RocWiki entry or entries may be useful for a historical researcher but not useful for display to the casual RocWiki browser (and RocWiki Search, external searches, web crawlers, etc.) except to let them know identifying information (and possibly relevant keywords) of the archival status of the information. For instance: + Person: died, moved away, retired, withdrew, was replaced, ... + Business: closed, relocated out of the area, absorbed into a new business, ... + Organization - Terminated, relocated out of area, reorganized, repurposed, absorbed into another organization. + Place: closed, no longer useful, use changed, ... + Thing: not available, no longer used, banned, ... + Event: cancelled, absorbed, discontinued, ... + Venue: closed, repurposed, ... + Proposal: cancelled, replaced, withdrawn ... + + '''Some Considerations''': + * Timeliness: limit time an Archivable page remains Current + * Manpower: make most effective use of Editor/Contributor resources + * Useful Information: retain attractiveness and power of RocWiki for normal users and researchers + * Search Engine Access: control non-active content access + * Anticipate future RocWiki technology upgrades and apply consistent manual templates, rules, etc to support simplified and automated conversion tasks. + + ----
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- * XYZ Inc, formerly manufacturing in ["Greece"] moved to Mexico in July 2006 as a result of our NAFTA policies. - * John Smith was the President from xxx to yyy and was succeeded by xxxx - * FunPlaceUSA was an active venue until 2008 when it was closed due to neighbors' complaints. - * '''Previous Phone Number''': 585 xxx xxxx - * '''Previous Website''': http://www,ThereOldWebAddress.com	+ * Header Formatted info (color selection for example purposes only) + \|\|<bgcolor='#E00000'>'''Previous Phone Number'''\|\| + \|\| 585 xxx xxxx\|\| + \|\|<bgcolor='#E00000'>'''Previous Website'''\|\| + \|\|http://www.TheirOldWebAddress.com\|\| + * Retained description topic sentence: + * '''This Old Restaurant''', CLOSED in August 2008, was . . . + * '''XYZ Inc''', formerly manufacturing in ["Greece"] moved to Mexico in July 2006 as a result of our NAFTA policies. + * '''John Smith''' was the President of ["Sample Organization"] from xxx to yyy and was succeeded by ["Sample, Ima Person"] + * '''FunPlaceUSA''' was an active venue until 2008 when it was closed due to neighbors' complaints. Most future events will be staged at ["Sample Venue"] + * Retained detail information: + An editor may decide to retain additional, detailed information if it were to be of general interest or might yield important results for someone searching (or web crawling) RocWiki. We made need additional discussion on this subject, including potential tools for Archival Search (current revision -1 or tagged Archive Page).
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- '''Color Coded and Text Annotated Header's''': - * '''RATIONALE''': Standardize a Header with a distinct and uniform color for Archived information so that it stands out to visual users and includes a standard Text Coding for non-visual and search engine browsers. The selection of color should follow some reasonable or externally familiar approach such as RED GREEN YELLOW for Stop, Go, Caution, etc. Some examples:	+ '''Color Coded and Text Annotated Header's in Current Page''': + * '''RATIONALE''': Standardize all Headers on Active Current Pages of Archived page with a distinct and uniform color for any retained (Archived) information so that it stands out to visual users and includes a standard Text Coding for non-visual and search engine browsers. The selection of color should follow some reasonable or externally familiar approach such as RED GREEN YELLOW for Stop, Go, Caution, etc. Some examples:
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- * Discussion:	+ * Discussion: Placing a color coded header with standardized text makes the entry stand out. The associated text can describe the rationale. If we create a standardized result that could be automated with a Macro, then we can get started manually and start using the Macro when it is available. + + Example suggestions (color for example only): + * Presumes Manual based on standards or some Macros such as + {{{ [[Archive("CLOSED", "July 2008","The owners moved out of the area.")]]}}} + {{{ [[ArchiveRev("13")]] - generates appropriate link reference}}} + {{{ [[ArchiveAddr("35 Chestnut Street, Rochester NY, 14604")]]}}} + {{{ [[ArchiveLink( + \|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''3S Restaurant & Cafe CLOSED July 2008'''\|\| - \|\|Manual or Macro Type and date\|\| + \|\|The owners moved out of the area.\|\| - \|\|Manual or Macro reason for action\|\| + \|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''Archived On: YYYY-MM-DD HH:MM:SS'''\|\| - \|\|Manual or Macro\|\| + \|\|'''[http://rocwiki.org/3S_Restaurant_%26_Cafe?action=recall&version=11 VIEW Historical Data]'''\|\| - \|\|Manual or Macro link to last active revision\|\| + \|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''Former Location'''\|\| - \|\|Manual or Macro if entry has location info\|\| + {{{## \|\|[[Address("35 Chestnut Street, Rochester NY, 14604")]] \|\|}}} preserve old as comment?? + \|\|[http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=35+Chestnut+Street,+Rochester+NY,+14604 35 Chestnut Street, Rochester NY, 14604]\|\| - \|\|Manual or Macro maybe Google, maybe new macro\|\| + \|\|See ["Gone, But Not Forgotten"]\|\| - \|\|Manual or Macro category list - may need to expand\|\| +
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-

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

BradMandell — 2008-09-09T13:33:20Z

INTERIM SAVE 2 WORK-IN-PROGRESS - Breakfast Break

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- The following is a major revision. For Previous discussion of '''Historical Listings''' please see [http://rocwiki.org/Gone%2C_But_Not_Forgotten/Talk?action=recall&version=11 Version 11 of this page] and [http://rocwiki.org/3S_Restaurant_%26_Cafe/Talk?action=recall&version=2 3S Restaurant Talk Version 2]. --["Users/BradMandell"]	+ The following is a major revision and I have attempted to incorporate previous comments and suggestions. For Previous discussion of '''Historical Listings''' please see [http://rocwiki.org/Gone%2C_But_Not_Forgotten/Talk?action=recall&version=11 Version 11 of this page] and [http://rocwiki.org/3S_Restaurant_%26_Cafe/Talk?action=recall&version=2 3S Restaurant Talk Version 2]. --["Users/BradMandell"]
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- This restriction will prevent outdated entities from appearing on current Map Icon displayed maps. We will discuss further some features to support map display of Archived entriesr.	+ This restriction will prevent outdated entities from appearing on current Map Icon displayed maps. We will discuss further some features to support map display of Archived entries.
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- '''Color Coded and Text Annotated Header''': - * '''RATIONALE''': Standardize a Header with a distinct and uniform color for Archived information so that it stands out to visual users and includes a standard Text Coding for non-visual and search engine browsers. The selection of color should follow some reasonable or externally familiar approach such as RED GREEN YELLOW for Stop, Go, Caution, etc. - * For Example: - * Change LOCATION to FORMER LOCATION - - * Discussion: The header is otherwise incorrect. We want correct information for a browser coming directly into a RocWiki page from a bookmark, link or search engine result, as well as search engine crawlers.	+ '''What Text to preserve in ''CURRENT'' Page''' + The archive process should result in a '''''Current''''' page containing notice of archival (suggestions below) and only that content that is useful to the casual browser, search engines, and such. Researchers, the decidedly curious, etc can access the archived material via a link to the Archived Revision NR. + The remaining content on the CURRENT page should be concise and correct as to tense and any historic information should be clearly marked. Remember that any RocWiki links on the page will result in Links To references on the linked-to-page's Info and could be used by automated tools. + Some examples: + * XYZ Inc, formerly manufacturing in ["Greece"] moved to Mexico in July 2006 as a result of our NAFTA policies. + * John Smith was the President from xxx to yyy and was succeeded by xxxx + * FunPlaceUSA was an active venue until 2008 when it was closed due to neighbors' complaints. + * '''Previous Phone Number''': 585 xxx xxxx + * '''Previous Website''': http://www,ThereOldWebAddress.com
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	+ '''Color Coded and Text Annotated Header's''': + * '''RATIONALE''': Standardize a Header with a distinct and uniform color for Archived information so that it stands out to visual users and includes a standard Text Coding for non-visual and search engine browsers. The selection of color should follow some reasonable or externally familiar approach such as RED GREEN YELLOW for Stop, Go, Caution, etc. Some examples: + * Change LOCATION to FORMER LOCATION - + * Discussion: The header is otherwise incorrect. We want correct information for a browser coming directly into a RocWiki page from a bookmark, link or search engine result, as well as search engine crawlers. + * Add Header CLOSED, DECEASED, RELOCATED FROM AREA, ... as appropriate to subject of content. + * Discussion:

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

BradMandell — 2008-09-09T12:59:38Z

WORK IN PROGRESS - INTERIM SAVE

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- \|\|<bgcolor='#FFFFE0'> Please see["3S Restaurant & Cafe/Talk"] [http://rocwiki.org/3S_Restaurant_%26_Cafe/Talk] for additional discussion about the Closed Macro (and manual edits prior) as well as examples of alternatives based on Whimsy, compactness, etc. --["Users/BradMandell"]\|\|	+ '''REVISED PROPOSALS/DISCUSSIONS - Sep 9, 2008 - WORK IN PROGRESS WITH INTERIM SAVES - PLEASE HOLD OFF EDIT OR COMMENTS UNTIL THIS LINE IS UPDATED - THANKS''' --["Users/BradMandell"] + + The following is a major revision. For Previous discussion of '''Historical Listings''' please see [http://rocwiki.org/Gone%2C_But_Not_Forgotten/Talk?action=recall&version=11 Version 11 of this page] and [http://rocwiki.org/3S_Restaurant_%26_Cafe/Talk?action=recall&version=2 3S Restaurant Talk Version 2]. --["Users/BradMandell"]
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- SUGGESTION for historical listings pages:
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- I have started an alpha order editing of the Gone, But Not Forgotten restaurants using the following suggestion - see ["3S Restaurant & Cafe"] for example. Please dive in and make additional suggestions or start at some point and leave a note so we don't run into one another editing. ["Users/BradMandell"]	+ SUGGESTION for Archival listings and Archival Reference pages:
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- 1. Replace Location header with:	+ '''General''' + * '''Now versus later''': the sooner we can agree on an approach and simple techniques for implementing them manually, the sooner RocWiki looks good. Proposals should include straightforward manual steps as well as possible automated assists. + * '''Editor Time''': the less time it takes for an editor to perform the steps, the quicker we get caught up, the more time they have for other editing, and the more likely we are to stay up to date. + * '''Future RocWiki implementations''': to the extent we can standardize style elements within RocWiki with future CSS (or similar) in mind, the easier it will be to automate the future conversion. More on this subject in following discussions and in separate discussions regarding '''Templates''', etc. + * '''Browser View''': in our design considerations we should forget our "RocWikian" perspective and adopt the view of ''someone'' or ''somecrawler'' viewing a page with no other "RocWiki" context.
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- \|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''Former Location - ["Gone, But Not Forgotten"] (:>( '''\|\| - {{{ - \|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''Former Location - ["Gone, But Not Forgotten"] (:>( '''\|\|}}}	+ '''Address Macro Implications''' + For the current revision of any RocWiki Page (and those accessible to search engines) the Address Macro should be restricted to entries where the Person, Place, or Thing is still directly associated with the location and the text of the page correctly reflects the current association. + This restriction will prevent outdated entities from appearing on current Map Icon displayed maps. We will discuss further some features to support map display of Archived entriesr.
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- '''RATIONALE:''' - COLOR select a different color for historical information so that it stands out - - Change LOCATION to FORMER LOCATION - I have had experience with coming into RocWiki directly from a search engine result - and clicked the MAP reference on a closed entry. - Add the back link to the Gone - we need it somewhere - why not here - it says it all - SAD FACE - just my attempt to keep some sense of Whimsy to RocWiki	+ '''Color Coded and Text Annotated Header''': + * '''RATIONALE''': Standardize a Header with a distinct and uniform color for Archived information so that it stands out to visual users and includes a standard Text Coding for non-visual and search engine browsers. The selection of color should follow some reasonable or externally familiar approach such as RED GREEN YELLOW for Stop, Go, Caution, etc. + * For Example: + * Change LOCATION to FORMER LOCATION - + * Discussion: The header is otherwise incorrect. We want correct information for a browser coming directly into a RocWiki page from a bookmark, link or search engine result, as well as search engine crawlers. + + '''Cross-Links within RocWiki''' + + + Add the back link to the Gone - we need it somewhere - why not here - it says it all

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

BradMandell — 2008-09-04T14:20:58Z

Note to Go see Example and Discussion on 3S

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- -	+ ---- + \|\|<bgcolor='#FFFFE0'> Please see["3S Restaurant & Cafe/Talk"] [http://rocwiki.org/3S_Restaurant_%26_Cafe/Talk] for additional discussion about the Closed Macro (and manual edits prior) as well as examples of alternatives based on Whimsy, compactness, etc. --["Users/BradMandell"]\|\| + ----

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

BradMandell — 2008-09-04T14:04:44Z

Comment added.

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	+ ------ + ''2008-09-04 10:04:44'' [[nbsp]] Please see["3S Restaurant & Cafe/Talk"] [http://rocwiki.org/3S_Restaurant_%26_Cafe/Talk] for additional discussion about the Closed Macro (and manual edits prior) as well as examples of alternatives based on Whimsy, compactness, etc. --["Users/BradMandell"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

BradMandell — 2008-09-04T12:20:57Z

Comment added.

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	+ ------ + ''2008-09-04 08:20:57'' [[nbsp]] My vision of RocWiki includes the preservation of a rich ongoing history (even our recent past) of the community which provides our local residents, past residents and those interested in Rochester with access to the communities retained knowledge. Some Examples: I have been working on a Personal History to pass on to my family. What a delight it would be to be able to access information about some ["Gone, But Not Forgotten"] restaurant where I shared some special time with family or friends. How many promotions, baby births, weddings, graduations, or other special moments have a special connection to one of these truly NOT FORGOTTEN places. There are lots of uses for the historical data - so lets preserve it and not even worry how or why the future data miners wish to use it. I especially liked DaveMahon's reference to the previous version. I will add a note above on some suggestions. --["Users/BradMandell"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

DaveMahon — 2008-09-04T11:53:19Z

amending my comment

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- ''2008-09-04 07:51:54'' [[nbsp]] I'm all for removing contact information; if people want the phone number, they can look in the page history. I wonder if our Illustrious Tech Wizards could create a {{{[[Closed]]}}} macro that would disable mapping so there was no accidental click through. --["Users/DaveMahon"]	+ ''2008-09-04 07:51:54'' [[nbsp]] I'm all for removing contact information; if people want the phone number, they can look in the page history. I wonder if our Illustrious Tech Wizards could create a {{{[[Closed]]}}} macro that would disable mapping and redact address macro content so there was no accidental click through. --["Users/DaveMahon"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

DaveMahon — 2008-09-04T11:51:54Z

Comment added.

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	+ ------ + ''2008-09-04 07:51:54'' [[nbsp]] I'm all for removing contact information; if people want the phone number, they can look in the page history. I wonder if our Illustrious Tech Wizards could create a {{{[[Closed]]}}} macro that would disable mapping so there was no accidental click through. --["Users/DaveMahon"]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

DaveMahon — 2008-09-04T11:49:40Z

let's at least use our integrated comment functionality :)

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	+ + [[Comments()]]

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

BradMandell — 2008-09-03T22:55:23Z

Response to PeteB's concerns.

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	+ '''RATIONALE:''' - COLOR select a different color for historical information so that it stands out - + Change LOCATION to FORMER LOCATION - I have had experience with coming into RocWiki directly from a search engine result - and clicked the MAP reference on a closed entry. + Add the back link to the Gone - we need it somewhere - why not here - it says it all + SAD FACE - just my attempt to keep some sense of Whimsy to RocWiki +
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	+ + '''RATIONALE:''' Still awaiting any suggestions - but if it were up to me I would have created a separate macro to allow historical mapping to be handled differently and not clutter up active entry maps - still giving the viewer a quick look at where the entry used to be.
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	+ + '''RATIONALE:''' put this right under the top two lines and don't ident it since it is now the current Factual side for the entry.
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	+ '''RATIONALE:''' Indentation makes the data more a footnote and less likely for the CLOSED to be missed. Compacting the data made sense to me since it was historical data. We probably need to agree on what stays and what goes - there was a big variance in the existing entries - some kept some of the info, some put CLOSED in all the some entries and parts of entries. In previous data base and presentation tasks I have worked on, we did data compaction both for reduction of data size, but also to distinguish old from new data. + ---- +
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	+ '''COMMENT FROM BRAD:''' I added my RATIONALE above, happy to hear folks comments and suggestions, as I said, I halted any more changes and will be happy to restore things to whatever folks decide. I have been doing this professional since 1967, so I ignore the "professional" aspect.

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

peteb — 2008-09-03T22:29:02Z

Adjusted my comments

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- '''COMMENT FROM PETEB:''' I am sorry, Brad, but I do not like this reformatting at all. #1: It wasn't really discussed by the community before agreeing to go ahead and do it on multiple closed businesses like you have done. #2: I find the format to be visually very unappealing and less than professional. Really think the old format worked fine.	+ '''COMMENT FROM PETEB:''' I am sorry, Brad, but I do not like this reformatting at all. #1: It wasn't really discussed by the community before agreeing to go ahead and do it on full tilt on all the closed businesses. #2: I find the format to be visually very unappealing and less than professional. Really think the old format worked fine.

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

peteb — 2008-09-03T21:53:55Z

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- '''COMMENT FROM PETEB:''' I am sorry but I do not like this reformatting at all. #1: It wasn't really discussed by the community before agreeing to do it. #2: I find the format to be visually very unappealing and less than professional. Really think the old format worked fine.	+ '''COMMENT FROM PETEB:''' I am sorry, Brad, but I do not like this reformatting at all. #1: It wasn't really discussed by the community before agreeing to go ahead and do it on multiple closed businesses like you have done. #2: I find the format to be visually very unappealing and less than professional. Really think the old format worked fine.

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

peteb — 2008-09-03T21:52:51Z

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	+ + '''COMMENT FROM PETEB:''' I am sorry but I do not like this reformatting at all. #1: It wasn't really discussed by the community before agreeing to do it. #2: I find the format to be visually very unappealing and less than professional. Really think the old format worked fine.

Gone, But Not Forgotten/Talk

BradMandell — 2008-09-03T14:42:13Z

Suggestion for editing and reformatting CLOSED listings

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	+ This page is for discussing the contents of ["Gone, But Not Forgotten"]. + + + SUGGESTION for historical listings pages: + + I have started an alpha order editing of the Gone, But Not Forgotten restaurants using the following suggestion - see ["3S Restaurant & Cafe"] for example. Please dive in and make additional suggestions or start at some point and leave a note so we don't run into one another editing. ["Users/BradMandell"] + + 1. Replace Location header with: + + \|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''Former Location - ["Gone, But Not Forgotten"] (:>( '''\|\| + {{{ + \|\|<bgcolor='#FFE0E0'>'''Former Location - ["Gone, But Not Forgotten"] (:>( '''\|\|}}} + + 2. Retain address information - maybe RocWiki should have an historic address macro that would create a linked map address, no MAP symbol and the Gone places would not appear on the map for nearby locations. For the time being, I am not removing the Address macros '''SUGGESTIONS???''' + + 3. Insert the bolded topic with CLOSED in + '''This Old Restaurant''', CLOSED in August 2008, was: + + 4. Indent and retain any useful info, but delete any other formatted header entries that are no longer valid. Some might argue that it might be useful to have that old info just for "memory lane" purposes ("Oh, so that was the number we have saved on the refrig !!") - any preserved data may be compacted perhaps (see below). We do not want to cause folks to get unwanted phone calls from our out-of-date info. + \|\|<bgcolor='#E0E0FF'>'''Phone''' - 585 000 0000\|\| + \|\|<bgcolor='#E0E0FF'>'''Accessible''' - Yes\|\| + \|\|<bgcolor='#E0E0FF'>'''Reviews'''\|\| + + 5 Indent rest of entries so that the original info is indented from the Topic CLOSED